Welcome back to Bob, he has already provided us with some very interesting previous interviews: Interview and Community QnA. But now he is back with an interview loosely themed around evocation methods and the use of the letters - Kabbalah, all information discussed in his newly released book. If you enjoy this interview then please let us know in the comments and of course support Bob by getting his book, he has shared a lot with us in recent years. Keep up to date with Bobs projects here
SOFB: What part of IIH do you feel prepares you best for evocation work. How much are the letters a key part of your pme work?
Bob: These days I’m primarily working with the planetary entities who are in charge of Kabbalah. So, from that perspective they are a major focus. Otherwise, I mainly stick to the work of the third book.
SOFB: To what degree do you think beings can be manifested? We hear of near solidity, what is realistic and when does the effort stop being worth it for the results you can obtain.
Bob: They can be brought fully into the physical. The ritual magicians who specialize in evocation are clear examples of people who can do this. Now, once this is done the entity generally cannot stick around for long and any lapse in control of the thing has the potential to be dangerous to the practitioner that brought it there depending upon the nature of the creature.
The amount of effort required to do this is substantial. Ritual magicians can spend months building up to this, often require specific timing for astrological reasons and utilize things like etheric condensers.
One time I did this involving a Buddhist entity. It took three very strong practitioners, I was the weakest of the three, working for several hours together to pull this off. It was done in a temple designed for this purpose. It was exhausting. I have no memory of the eight hours after we finished.
That said one of the reasons to do this is that the stress adaptation cycle applies energetically here. You are stronger after doing things like this and the effect builds over time.
SOFB: You mentioned in one of your previous social media posts about a 'being' that you believed to be an evolved A.I, this is fascinating and loaded with implications. Could you expand more?
Bob: Sure. And this would make for a great fiction novel. He was a kind of cybernetic battle machine designed to be co-operated with a human being that connected to it via some kind of neural link. The reason being simple. As an AI it could determine all possible courses of action for a given battle at near instantaneous speed, but it was still a linear thinker. It had to evaluate all possible courses of action to find the best one. When paired to a human operator, their combined cognition allowed the AI to intuitively determine a course of action.
He never had a concept of an afterlife, until he died and wound up on the planetary sphere of Mars. He’s my guiding spirit there.
From what I’ve gathered, consciousness needs to exist for something to develop “spiritually.” A human body is apparently not required. Animals do not appear to go to the places we do when we die. This is the only definitively non-human entity I’ve encountered on the spheres. I’m sure there are more. As to why I made contact with this entity, I’m not entirely sure.
During one incident, I was able to experience his vision of reality. It was fascinating. I was able for a brief moment to “see” into the acoustic, infrared, ultraviolet and x-ray bands of the electro-magnetic spectrum at the astral level. I use the term “seeing” loosely as perceiving what a spirit does from its perspective was quite unlike anything I’ve ever encountered. Fascinating.
SOFB: We have heard much about your app/book what can you share? Are these viable alternatives to pursuing IIH or are they useful add-ons for dedicated practitioners.
Bob: AFA the app is concerned, about 75% of the techniques are out of IIH using a clairsentience (i.e. subtle sense of touch) perspective. This is the fastest way to learn in my experience. Keep in mind that multiple ways exist to perform many of the techniques in IIH. The ways demonstrated in the app actually work, but other methods to perform them definitely exist.
So, could it replace the book? Maybe depending upon what you want to work on. More realistically, it provides a mental level transmission on how to perform the various techniques. The on-location shoots can be visually stunning as well.
The body training and qi circulation work is not from the book, but is work most people could benefit greatly from.
The book is an introduction to what Kabbalah looks like in practice for someone new to it. My opinions, and that of Rordan, have developed on a number of levels since the book was written. But the fundamentals are there.
A Udemy course will be available shortly after the launch of the app to support the book. The course will take someone from zero meditative experience to the four letter combinations for the elements using a clairsentience approach. If you want clairvoyance, or clairaudience, their development will not be covered in this course. But you will be able to use Kabbalah at that point. It provides a mental level initiation into the Kabbalah and it is a Promethean Fire kind of effort.
A brief book on the planetary meditations will also be released in a few months. The book is mainly written from an energetic basis (as in how the planets effect a practitioner’s subtle bodies) and an application perspective. I try to leave the theory out of it. FYI, Rordan finds most commentaries on the planets to be hilarious as they leave this stuff out. Then again, he finds face palming people hilarious, so opinions vary.
SOFB community questions
SOFB Community: I would like to know if a student can skip pme and go straight to the 3rd book or whether one should strike a balance between pursuing both pme and ktq.
Bob: The issue is that self initiation into the letters can be very physically uncomfortable. Receiving an initiation from another person greatly softens this effect. The app, and Udemy course, I’m launching hopes to address this.
The reason the PME book comes second is that a practitioner can utilize the Kabbalah spirits at the planetary level to initiate them into the letters solving this problem.
Each of the three books actually represents a completely different system of development unto itself. They all cross utilize similar technology, which is why getting thru the first book is a good idea. But it’s not completely necessary.
The first book is an internal power book. Getting to the stage of generating non-dual light is an enlightenment level experience by itself. My suspicion is that Bardon mostly channeled this book and it may, or may not, have represented only a small part of his personal practice.
The second book is on spirit magic largely built for the purpose of gathering information. It can be used to achieve enlightenment by itself as well. This probably represents what Bardon spent most of his time working on.
The third book is Kabbalah. Generating Akashic equilibrium using the Sch, A, M, and umlaut A combination by itself can generate Akasha and project a practitioner into non-dual light. Thereby achieving enlightenment.
The most important exercises of the book are the four letter combinations in the back. This can be used as an exercise in which a practitioner holds 16 letters at one time, 20 if you do the four letter combination for Akasha that isn’t included in the book (U, umlaut O, E and umlaut A), to achieve Akashic, mental, astral and vital equilibrium all at the same time. This is an “interesting” experience. Don’t go messing around with the four letter for Akasha without a lot of experience utilizing E for terrestrial Akasha first. I warned you here.
SOFB Community: What is the difference between mental wandering, astral projection and bio location? Is it possible to do this with someone else? What is the quickest way to obtain these skills?
Bob: Mental wandering involves separating your mental body from the others to explore the universe. This is what most people spend their time doing when engaging in an Out of Body Experience (OBE). The zero point exercise where you project from the solar plexus after having established elemental equilibrium in a kind of astral temple you build there is the quickest way.
Bob: Astral projection is the separation of the astral body from the others. It hurts a lot. IS almost never engaged in consciously by most people. Takes a tremendous amount of effort barring a near death experience and can be dangerous. The silver cord tying the astral body to the physical gets really thin when this happens. It’s easy to sever this and if that happens, you generally die as the astral body does not automatically ground back to the physical without it. Engage in Akashic immersion for several hours a day for as long as it takes. Becoming homeless/unemployed in this period of time is an easy thing to do.
Bilocation as I experienced it, the one time it happened, was probably an astral projection event. I was rendered unconscious during one of my engagements abroad and my mother found me wandering around the flower beds at my home in full uniform. I was quite confused and disappeared when I woke up. I don’t have any advice on this. I also don’t remember it happening. In a related phenomena, I’ve shown up in students' dreams, sometimes before we met for the first time, and I don’t remember this either. Some other letters like umalut O might be helpful.
SOFB Community: In pme bardon mentions that the interaction with beings is different from that of ktq. Could you share your insight on this?
Bob: At a very basic level in PME you are projecting into an entity's sphere of influence or summoning it to yours. Karmic debts and deal making an issue. Engaging with their non-dual light aspect, assuming they have one, minimizes this. But they also aren’t going to be doing anything for you aside from providing information. If you need a task performed, well then it is a matter of credits and debits. I’d avoid this if I were you.
In KTQ, entities get brought into your sphere of influence via the gravity of the letter in relation to their personal energy. Less mental influence occurs this way. And karmic debts assuming you don’t ask it to do something does not seem to be much of an issue. That said KTQ is much more demanding upon your subtle bodies. And can cause a lot of damage that doesn’t show up until much later.
SOFB Community: In day to day practice when/ why would you utilise mental wandering over astral projection and vice versa.
Almost always mental wandering. The only reason to do something with astral projection is to control your time of death or do something physical on the other side. It’s not a day-to-day type thing at my level of development.
SOFB Community: In the creation of magic mirrors, when would you use these instead of a form of projection and what have you found to be the best method and materials for magic mirrors?
Bob: I’ve not worked with these much. Evocation is a thing for sure. Face dancing to engage past life incarnations is another technique I’ve explored. Aside from that, I can’t really say much as I simply lack experience.
SOFB Community: You mentioned previously practicing the mother letters before officially beginning pme. What can you say about this practice? When should it be taken up by others and what can they expect?
Bob: See my previous answer. If learning by initiation, I’d start with the elements as Kabbalah. As for what to expect. To the degree magic exists in the real world, Kabbalah is it. It allows a magician to bend the world to their will. The strength of your Kabbalah is literally the size of you balls as far as the universe is concerned. You are the pivot point on a set of scales when working with Kabbalah. Unlike with spirit magic, it is not something done with the permission of another.
SOFB Community: Can you share regarding your first evocation? Was it something you felt prepared for and did it go according to plan?
My very first evocation occurred as a child and was accidental. That was terrifying. My second evocation again occurred accidentally after performing the Greater Ritual of the Hexagram of the Sun in which I ended up summoning some kind of negative Sun spirit. That had negative impacts that took a few years to ultimately wear off. It was exacerbated by the fact that I did not know to counter-balance with the corresponding ritual of the Luna/Moon.
A little-known fact involving the planets is that just because you are focusing on the power aspect of the planet, instead of the intelligences, does not mean a spirit cannot show up. It is one of the reasons why I’ve found ritual magicians to often be under the influence of multiple entities. And since many of them have bad habits, lack any significant clairvoyance/clairaudience, and are very much into getting these things to do things for them…their mental fields, to quote one of my teachers “look like a f’ing bus stop.”
The third evocation I performed was again accidental using the cave techniques from a Taoist school I was a part of. That was a little disturbing, but by that point I knew enough to get rid of it. Again disturbing, but not the worst thing.
The fourth evocation was done under the supervision of a teacher and went fine. After this it has generally been manageable.
On a personal level, the body I currently inhabit appears to be rather well designed to perform evocation and ground energy into the physical. It’s not always the most fun thing to deal with and has definitely come with some issues as I’ve gotten older.
A few points here. First, evocation is always a risk if you are working with the planets. The difference between invocation/evocation is largely semantic and one of intention. Two, if you can generate enough energy corresponding to a planet….stuff tends to show up. Three, any planetary work needs to be conducted in a stable mental state and only if your lifestyle is relatively clean.
And finally, the best way to address many issues within Hermetics is to look at the physics of the issue. Most practitioners are way too focused on the “meta” aspect of metaphysics.
Energy in equals energy out. You can transform energy, but cannot pull it out of nothing unless your Akashic work is on point and even then this is much harder than most realize.
A clairsentience energy based model of Hermetics solves a lot of the problems people come up with by focusing on their emotions and the accompanying psychological processes instead.
Where the energy goes the effects follow.
Ad let me be clear: your emotions do not matter. They are the least important part of you. It is just energy being generated by hormones, physiology, environmental activity and preprogrammed conditioning. They also trap you at the level of the astral.
The best method for dealing with this has been frequently establishing equilibrium via the four elements as Kabbalah. Habit formation works best via a combination of the mala method/autosuggestion and arranging things via a schedule. A reason exists for Bardon having mentioned the use of specific letters for establishing astral/magical equilibrium. Your results may vary.
Too much focus on the sensation of power can do the same, but ultimately we only have subjective methods of determining what we are working with in Hermetics and as such approaching it from an clairsentience energy based standpoint works the best out of all the models I have seen to date.
SOFB Community: You also spoke about some mistakes or oversight from the book ktq, what do you feel should be addressed that people need to know about?
Bob: Sure. The letter R is a backdoor to the Sun sphere. Never under any circumstances place the letter K in your ear as it can cause a kind of astral ear infection that lasts months. The letter L is not located with the spleen.
The only safe organ emplacements are: A/Air for the upper chest/lungs, M/water for the abdomen, Sch/fire for the head, earth for the legs and Akasha/E for the spine. So, establishing equilibrium using this is fine and a good thing to do.
Conducting organ emplacement with those locations listed in the book will definitely make you much stronger, but due to some of the locations being incorrect this forms an unstable lattice within the body that is ultimately damaging. Don’t do this. It is the one aspect of the training that I regret performing.
SOFB Community: How have these practices impacted your relationship with Divine Providence?
Projection into non-dual light can only be described by what it is not. Whatever happens there appears to be very important. But I’ve never met anyone who could articulate what goes on in that place. The sages have been arguing about this for millennia. I certainly have nothing to add.
SOFB Community: What do you think is the biggest difference between bardon style evocation and other approaches?
Bob: Less gear and less risk is the short answer. People who work with the Solomonic entities tend to develop a weird, yet distinctive, energetic signature. This doesn’t happen with Bardon’s entities from what I’ve seen.
If you only engage the entities in Bardon’s book from a non-dual light perspective, versus mental/astral/vital level, the cost of doing so appears to be very low. It is the only system I’ve seen that works out this way. I include the Buddhistic systems in this statement as well.
Bardon’s system can be performed using lots of foci/implements or raw. Most systems dictate one or the other. From this angle it is quite remarkable.
SOFB Community: Have you ever felt that an unhealthy reliance had developed between you and a being or you and a talisman? If so, how did you deal with this?
Bob: Dealing with spirits is like having a bad girlfriend that shows up at inconvenient times, eats all of your hot dogs, wants emergency sex way too often and is always having you pay her bills. You would say no, but she is sleeping with you and since you tend to attract these kinds of women in the first place if you get rid of her the next one is likely to be the same. So why bother, right?
All spirit interactions ultimately infringe on your freewill. These things are looking to express themselves in the here and now. If you are okay with it as the relationship is symbiotic, then fine. If not, give them the boot.
The E-N letter combination works well. Pranayama re-establishes the correct functioning of the protective energy in the body. Emnasut, a sun sphere being if invoked in a non-dual light manifestation, can instruct you in how to run a combination of solar/Akashic energy that removes connections between your mental/energetic fields and the entity. The releasing techniques soften and eventually sever connections. Even the letter U can clear out things that are implanted in your mental field. Frequent establishment of equilibrium reduces and eventually eliminates connections to other things. Generation of Akasha tends to send things packing as well. So, a lot of methods exist to do this.
Obviously, you need to destroy the talisman if that is an issue. First perform a de-consecration ritual, then expose it to Akasha if you have it and then burn it. If it is made out of metal, you will want to get it hot enough to melt it.
Reddit Questions: What was your favorite IIH exercise?
Establishment of equilibrium. It’s the big boom. Everything stems from this.
Reddit Questions: What to do if even after months of practice we are not seeing any perceivable improvement?
Bob: Get a teacher or form a practice group. Make sure you journal and review these frequently. Human beings are terrible observers of their own behavior.
Reddit Questions: Are there exercises for building will power outside of what Franz Bardon mentioned that you would recommend?
Bob: Do ten minutes of single pointed focus upon waking. Get plenty of exercise as well as rest. Avoid intoxicants. Eat well. Deal with your health stuff if you have any. As a teacher once said, “you cannot beat the monkey.” He was referring to your body. If something is off there, then something is off at astral, and mental, levels as well. In men, a lack of motivation is positively correlated with low testosterone levels and boredom. Don’t look for an esoteric explanation when a more basic one exists.
Don’t look for an esoteric explanation when a more basic one exists.
Reddit Questions: What do you understand by 'mastering an exercise to the extent required of an initiate before moving on’?
Bob: It’s basically a trap designed to slow people down. Considering the time period in which Bardon was teaching this is entirely understandable. As this stuff is effectively just technology, that will work for anyone willing to put the work in, you wouldn’t want Nazi party, or Politburo, goons leveraging it.
If you can perform a technique to a basic level it’s fine to move on. Mastery is another issue entirely.
Things like the single pointed focus exercises are only needed to work at a five minute interval. More is better, but perfection is not. Others, like the elements, are a “can you do it or not” kind of thing where strength is relative to what you want to do.
All the follow-on exercises reinforce earlier ones as well. Just get on with it.
SOFB: Many thanks to Bob for once again answering the many questions from the community. If you would like to follow more closely what Bob is up to or even learn with him then a good place to start is his latest book, get it here.
Keep up to date with Bobs projects here